The Laws of Style hosted by Douglas Hand Episode 18 – Candice Cuoco
“I am my own muse: my emotions, my feelings, my experiences, that’s my brand. “
On this episode of The Laws of Style, Douglas chats with women’s wear designer & Project Runway star, Candice Cuoco about the impact her upbringing and early motherhood had on her success and how her designs empower women to live more authentic lives. Also discussed: Project Runway, her affinity for the color black and using real leather for sustainability.
Fedora – Eugenia Kim
Dress– Candice Cuoco
Shoes – Calvin Klein
Belt – Candice Cuoco
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INTRO: Welcome to The Laws of Style, featuring conversations on creativity, fashion and the law from the leading edge of our economy and culture, hosted by noted fashion lawyer, Douglas Hand.
Douglas HAND: Hello, and welcome to the podcast, The Laws of Style, downloading to you from the offices of HBA, High above Bryant Park in the garment district of New York City. I’m your host Douglas Hand, fashion lawyer and fashion law professor. And I am joined today by client and friend Candice Cuoco, who is a women’s wear designer. Candice, thanks for joining us today.
Candice CUOCO: Really excited to be here.
HAND: So, you are in from the west coast. How was your trip?
CUOCO: It was hell. No, I’m kidding. It was really good. I was excited to be here.
HAND: Yeah. And you are here.. Well, you brought your daughter.
CUOCO: I did.
HAND: So you’re doing a little sightseeing. But you’re also doing any work while you’re here?
CUOCO: Yeah, you know, as being your own boss and entrepreneur and being in fashion, there’s always work no matter where you are.
HAND: Well, let’s get into it and start maybe more towards the beginning.
CUOCO: The good stuff.
HAND: The good stuff, exactly. You have a very interesting story, a lot of which, you know, on Project Runway that you’ve been on twice, two different types of episodes. And we’ll get into that. You’ve opened up about your childhood and some of the challenges that you faced growing up in Northern California. You know, just without asking anything specifically, can you lay those out and how they lead you to be the creative person that you are today?
CUOCO: Yeah, I always like to say that I had a very colorful upbringing. I think that’s like a great way of putting it. And yeah, I did open up about it on Project Runway. I wish they would have continued on with the message.
HAND: Well let’s fill in the blanks.
CUOCO: Yeah, so this is a great opportunity, exactly. I was born in Hayward, raised in Oakland, but all around the Bay Area. I call myself a Bay baby. And on Project Runway, I vetted that both of my parents were drug addicts. My mom was an IV drug user; my dad in and out of jail, raised around, you know, biker world. Very colorful upbringing.
HAND: Were they dealing drugs as well? Or was it just using?
CUOCO: I think my dad had his heyday, definitely. It’s a morbid family joke. But I guess that I used to carry certain drugs in my teddy bear when I was younger. So it was just a different lifestyle, and our family vacations consisted of going up to the snow in Nevada to like the Mustang Ranch, which is like a whorehouse, you know? So it was different but to me, it was normal, like that was normal. And my parents, sure they had an addiction, but they were bad asses. And I mean it in the sense that they were strong and what they believed in, and they always let me know that they loved me. And I think at the end of the day, knowing that you’re loved and that no matter what you do in this world, whether—my mom used to say, “I don’t care if you’re a doctor, or prostitute, you’re going to be the best one there is,” which is probably not the best advice, I probably would say to give your kids,
but like, it worked for me, because something set in in it ingrained in me. Like, no matter who I am, whether I’m a complete fuck up, pardon my language, or if I’m just in the eyes of the world, this huge success, they will always have my back, and I will always always be loved. And it’s not the “you can talk to me” kind of thing. It’s just like, really, like, I could be at rock bottom, and they would just considered me the world. And they did. So, yeah, it was hard. But I think that great people don’t always need to have great upbringings. And they don’t always have to have great houses and great cars. I don’t think that makes a great person. And I think it’s actually the opposite. You know, like, not saying that this was easy or glorified, but it helps me appreciate the bottom. And when you know what the bottom is, it’s kind of like finding faith, or like finding your faith in yourself or God or religion or something. You only can really look up from there.
HAND: Well, and things are really real, right? Because you’re at a place where you can’t go…
CUOCO: Anywhere else. There’s nowhere else to go but up
HAND: Being in a situation where you really they back to the wall, it must really cast in great relief what you want to do with your life.
HAND: And also perhaps, put you in a mindset where you feel like risking at all isn’t risking that much.
HAND: And so you can take chances where other people maybe don’t.
CUOCO: I mean, yeah, because everyone says like, “It’s so hard to start fashion and to get into it and start creating, and because I don’t have the money to do this and I don’t have the time.” And it’s like, “Well, I have nothing.” Like, I literally had nothing. Raised on welfare. You know, we’d have bologna sandwiches sometimes. It was interesting. But at the same time when…Like I said, you know what it’s like to be hungry and so the only way to get through it is to start appreciating that feeling, like really starting to love the hunger. And when you love that hunger, you want it for the rest of your life. So I mean, like literally, figuratively, emotionally. So it just bred a natural creative. I think, in my point of view, I’m just like always starving for more because of not in fear of not having anything because I’ve been there, I’ve settled in it. But it’s just a feeling that I’m very comfortable and proud of. And it’s just like you dive in and you get into the kind of like the depths of things. And like, that’s what life was for me. It wasn’t fun. It was very deep and emotional and it was hard. And sometimes that often, I think creates like the most beautiful stories. It’s like, the harder ones. And like, those are the people I kind of love and appreciate the most.
HAND: And it didn’t drive you to maybe more productive typically career oriented, financially successful paths that would involve hard work like becoming a physician, lawyer or something like that in your case. Or tell me, I mean, tell me if that was part of your mindset as you were struggling, “I’m going to make something of myself,” and before you had settled on it being something career oriented, not settled, but reached for that. Were there thoughts in your mind that I’m going to, you know, do something that traditionally has a high income attached to it?
CUOCO: No, actually, my goal as a little girl was to…My mom always told me that I, you know, she always told my sister and I, we have different dad’s. My dad’s Italian, her dad’s black, we raised under the same roof, same mom, thick as thieves, She’s the reason why I got into fashion. We can get into that later. She always told us, you’re going to be the ones to break the mold. Like, there’s addiction throughout the whole entire family, and you’re not going to do drugs, and you’re going to be something, you’re going to be something and you’re going to do it. And my dad would tell me the same thing, “You’re going to do something and you’re going to do really, really well.” And so it wasn’t like you have to grow up and be a doctor, or you’re going to be this, you’re going to be that, it’s just something that makes you happy. So that already was—which is not, I guess, common that parents tell their kids, you know?
And again, we didn’t have money, it was just what am I gonna do? I don’t know, to feed my soul. But you know, you don’t really find that out until later in life. But, no, when I was younger, what I wanted to do was get a job that could afford, an apartment that had white furniture because it was clean, a black cat and a black Toyota Corolla, and enough food that I wouldn’t be hungry. And those were my goals; not to get married, not to have this grand career. And I look back, and I’m like, “Well, I’ve surpassed that. So good job,” you know? But no, I never, at the time, before I had my daughter, I didn’t have a plan for life. Nobody went to work. Like my mom didn’t, you know, they didn’t do the nine to five,
HAND: Well, how did the creative impulse lead to an education focused on design? And weave your sister into it. I mean, how is she the one responsible for you making the choice to become a fashion designer?
CUOCO: So, I had my daughter when I was 17, which, thank God because she gave me purpose. Like, as soon as she came out, I then appreciated life. Like, the minute, I’ll probably cry, like the instant and I wish that feeling on everyone. But she completely changed me. I was this angry, bitter, mean person and I held on to everything. And I think I needed to at that time, I think life needs certain, it demands certain things from you to survive or get through that period in your life. And at that time, it was that baggage, that emotional baggage and I was very proud of it. And I held it very well. And it was very strong to me. And then I had her and I turned into this little mush bucket, and it demanded a different side to me. And I knew when she came out that I needed to make money, because that’s the thing in life. I do admire the emotional value in people, but I was 17 graduating high school, I needed to make money. So I thought I wanted to become a nurse because I figured they made money. Not because that’s what I wanted to be and not…It sounds ridiculous.
HAND: Well, or you like white outfits. Basic colors, white, red, black.
CUOCO: I do.
HAND: Maybe some subconcious…
CUOCO: Maybe I could have. You know, I saw like, I didn’t even know that they were you know, like the…What are they called, nurse scrubs?
CUOCO: Like the outfits. I wasn’t even aware. I just thought like, this was gonna feed my child. And I got through a couple of years of school and I like volunteered and like, first down the volunteer job, I was like, “This is not for me,” and I quit. And I went through every odd man job. Worked for Ross, and at the time, I was working at Home Depot. And I was running a few departments. I was department supervisor.
HAND: Did you ever drive a forklift or anything like that?
CUOCO: Oh, yeah, forklift. It was the Oakland Home Depot. Met a lot of really beautiful, like grounded people there that I still love and admire today. But I was real depressed. I was so unhappy. And I was watching my daughter watch me be depressed. And she became this melancholy soul just like I was. And I thought, “This is not what I want her to see a woman as. I don’t want her to have to hide her emotions and harden herself.” So I’d like to say I quit because I had that courage, but I didn’t I got fired. So they fired me. And I’m sitting on my sister’s couch because I had to move in with her. I had no money, and off the 35th, like, in the middle of the hood, on welfare. And I’m bawling. And she’s like, “Why are you crying?” “Because I got fired, and I have nothing.” And she was like, “Okay, that’s a great thing. You have nothing, so there’s nothing to lose. Okay.” And I go, “I don’t know what I need to do with my life. Like, what am I going to do?” And she goes, “Well, why don’t you go to school to make shit?” And I’m like, [sniffling] you know, like, crying like, “You mean like, design clothes, like clothes, like a fashion designer Tania?” My sister’s name is Tania. And she goes, “Yeah, like, you sow my curtains last week, and like you wore them as like a mini skirt for your birthday the other week, like, you go school to make shit.” And I’m like, “They don’t really make any money.” And like, you know, I sound like someone’s like unsupportive mother. You know, like, no, it’s not a career.”
HAND: Right. And this is…Give me the year.
CUOCO: I couldn’t tell you the year. I could tell you that I was 20/21.
HAND: All right. Yeah.
CUOCO: I’m 31. 10 years ago. So it’s a hot minute ago. And I’m like, “No, I’m not gonna do that.” And she was like, “Listen, how much money do you have?” And said like, “Nothing. I have nothing,” I tell her. “Okay, great. You’ve already created a few things. And no one’s ever showed you your creative. That’s the only time that you’re happy is when you’re literally creating something.” And so that was very profound of her, you know, like, no one had ever really…I mean, my mom, my dad did, but it was a moment. And she goes, “So, you know, like, if one thing we know how to do is we know how to figure out how to do it without nothing.” And I’m like, “I don’t even know where to start.” So she sat me in front of the computer. We actually could afford the internet at the time. And I started looking for schools.
HAND: And lo’ and behold, there was a local one?
CUOCO: Yeah. Yeah. So I enrolled into the Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising.
HAND: In San Francisco?
CUOCO: In San Francisco. I’m a Bay baby.
HAND: And was that a move? Or did you commute to class there?
CUOCO: No, I’d have to commute we have. We have Bart there. It’s like a subway.
HAND: Yeah, I’ve been to Bart.
CUOCO: Have you?
HAND: I have.
CUOCO: Was it great? Never a dull moment.
HAND: It wasn’t the New York City subway system. It was nice and clean, fast.
CUOCO: It depends on the car that you’re riding in. And you know, it’s never a dull moment. You know, you could get a show one day, a show the next day.
HAND: Well, it happens in this city, too.
HAND: Okay, so you started there, and was that an awakening for you? I mean, look, I have a three-year-old right now and a son who was three. I know what that’s like even with help. So here you are single mom, well, with a three-year-old,
CUOCO: I had actually just had my son. And then I decided to enroll in college again. And so now I’ve got a baby, another baby. So a five-year-old, an infant, and I’m starting college again. So I would say that I was scared. I’m older than everyone else, you know, you feel more poor, you’re poor, you think you’re poor. At the time, I didn’t realize like, my soul wasn’t poor, that wasn’t. And that’s what kind of kept me through. But you know, you feel it. You get in there and you’re intimidated. But coming from where I come from, you wipe that shut off right away, you know, so you hold face. And I was happy. So yeah, I was struggling, but I had more than I had ever had in my whole entire life at that moment. It was something for me that fed my soul. Yes, eventually my pocket, but it started with the inside. And I think we all have to start with that work first. So it was huge. And I didn’t know it at the time, I was changing. I always thought I had to be this other kind of person, like pretend to be happy, always have to be happy, happy, happy. And I don’t think that that’s the only emotional spectrum for women. I think we feel many things. We’re not just one thing, we’re not just angry or happy. We’re all of them, you know? Could be a blessing and a curse. I love them both, though. And I think that that’s really beautiful. And I started to discover that at FITM them. And I was young. But it was a monumental moment at the time. And I don’t think I realized it but I started to find my aesthetic.
HAND: How did those early life experiences and those struggles inform that aesthetic?
CUOCO: There was a instructor at the time…And I was fight always fought my past. You know, I didn’t want to lay any right to it or give it any credit for who I was. I refuse to be a statistic. So I never ever gave it any mind, like, never talked about anything. And he sat me down. His name is Julius Lumsden. And he says, “Why are you fighting it? Like, embrace it, and let that be your story. And like, let that be your picture. Let that be your aesthetic.” And like, it was just, you stop fighting it because it’s who you are, and who you are is really beautiful. And the day that you realize that it’s going to be very special for you and it’s going to be very different compared to everyone else. I mean, I don’t know where like, I had never heard anything like that before. Nobody had ever spoken to me like that before.
HAND: That’s all life coach stuff, not Professor stuff. So kudos to…
CUOCO: To Julius. Thanks, Julius. And so I did. And I started embracing that side. And it had a lot, you know, I love the color black. I think it’s very mysterious. I think it’s harder to design in black, because it’s just one blank canvas so you have to put more thought into it, the lines in the details. It’s more subtle, you have to look into it, there’s more depth.
HAND: The textures.
CUOCO: Yeah, the textures are so important. The structure of whatever fabrics that you’re using, they all tell very subtle stories. And it has a lot to do with my past. And I dwelled in that darker place. And as I’ve gone on as a creative, it’s evolved, but at that time that I was learning and creating, I learned that that was my creativity process, is that I heal through moments and times in my life. So my collections are based off of emotions, and not just one thing. It’s the emotional story that a woman is having, at one point in time in her life. It could be, you know, childbirth a heartbreak, like things that are very relatable. You know, like, so many people are chasing, like this ideal happiness, but we can all relate to pain and hurt, but also through really beautiful things, you know, like, when you’re in love with someone, you have both sides, so…
HAND: Right. So you also use a lot of leather, which looks great in black, right?
HAND: And conveys a lot of texture, changes over time.
CUOCO: I relate it to women.
HAND: Okay. Well, how? Unpack that for me.
CUOCO: I found out early on also, I mean, it’s just a whole new world opened up at FITM, that my love language, the things that I related to and like, you know, the things that talk spoke back to me, it was all just leather, like very structured fabric. And it’s because it reminded me of women. And the fact that I’ve watched so many women go through so much and just be torn apart and like tested. And I think they’re just so much more beautiful because of it. With leather, you can treat it like hell. And it often looks more beautiful after it’s aged. And when it’s been put through hell and back, the smell of it is really beautiful. The body and the shape that it it takes after you wear it over time. And that all reminds me of women, you know, like, our smell, our curves. And we’re often I think, more beautiful, and I don’t mean just the outside but the inside when we’ve been put through hell and back. I think we carry a different air to us when we’ve been put through just a little.
HAND: Well said. There are some critics who’ve compared a lot of your designs to Goth.
HAND: Does that inspire you? Is that a compliment? Is that off the mark? Are you yourself a Goth, you know, I mean, do you have musical interests that lean that way?
CUOCO: No, I mean, ACDC. I listened to everything from like, I don’t know, Beethoven to, sure, there’s Panthera in there. But ACDC, Leonard Skinner…My favorite, absolute favorite like there’s not a song I would skip is Florence And The Machine. And I think that it could represent my aesthetic. I don’t get offended when they say I’m Goth. I see it. And I do admire the darker side of things. But with the dark, there’s also a romantic side to my designs. So it’s like very dark and romantic. There’s depth to it. And that can be very colorful. It could be deep colors: deep blues, deep reds, jaded greens. Yes, black but like a deeper sea of emotion.
HAND: Yeah. Are there challenges designing in sometimes the heavy way that you do…
CUOCO: Oh, yeah,
HAND: …Finding, you know, a seasonal portfolio in that? Do you struggle with spring/summer or those types of fabrications, because leather can be hard to integrate into that type of wardrobe.
CUOCO: It is. I specialize in leather but I do create…I’ve just recently started to kind of open up and do ready to wear or dresses, wearable pieces. And in the beginning it was a struggle because my immediate go to was very avantgarde and it was very heavy. And not a lot of people…They go, “Where do you wear that to?” and it’s like, “Go to fucking Target in it. I don’t care.”
HAND: You’ll figure it out.
CUOCO: You know, like, it’s just like, put it on and like feel. My idea was to inspire… I was tired of seeing women…Not tired of it. I related to seeing women walk around and feel empty and not feel anything. And so if I could just, I don’t know, make you feel happy or extremely sad, or pull you or really bother you in some sort of way. Just wake you up emotionally so you can feel alive. And alive doesn’t just mean happy, alive means many things. But if I could just pull on those strings a little bit for women, I felt like I was winning. So that didn’t always mean wearable pieces for me. I do make them now. But I think that that was my goal. And at the same time, it was very selfish because I was trying to make myself feel alive. And I did that through creating. Now, I do… I used to struggle trying to design in spring, yeah. That was a long way of answering your question, yes.
HAND: Oh, no, but many designers, you know, there’s this tension between being a commercial designer.
HAND: Being an artist.
CUOCO: Yeah. And I like to call myself an artist,
HAND: Right. And an artist doesn’t put anything forth necessarily for an audience.
HAND: A true artist.
HAND: People have different definitions but that happens to be mine. So you know, that struggle is not uncommon. And it’s a process of evolution to get to a median between the…
CUOCO: That balance.
HAND: Yeah. You started swim recently? How is that going? And that strikes me as potentially a challenge, you know, with the Goth aesthetic, let’s say, and swim. So how is that going?
CUOCO: Yeah, spring and swim, at first, they were very challenging, because it’s like, “How am I going to put leather into this line?” and it’s like, “Well, you don’t have to just do leather, you know, you have this aesthetic, and you have this mission. And your goal is to make women feel. Your goal is to make women feel, not just feel confident, not just feel happy but to feel. You know, like, sometimes we often are too much, or it’s too heavy, or you feel too…You know, if you’re a woman who feels all the emotions, you’re considered, I don’t know, a basket case or…There’s so many names. I don’t even like bring them into my vocabulary. I don’t even pay any mind to it. It’s not a label, I even like to whatever. Once I let go of that, what swim in what dark, and what all these labels like what they should look like, the doors opened up, because swim in my language, the darker more romantic version, they come in dark florals and they come in very romantic silhouettes, different cuts, still very flattering but they’re not like very bright in your face. They’re very subtle. They have the details, there’s heavy hardware, but just enough to where it’s not weighing you down, it’s still swim. So yeah, “Excuse me, this is not functioning, I need help swimming.”
It’s just, I think that, sure, we wear clothes, they’re functional. And people say, “Oh, it’s so vain to care about what you look like.” But I don’t think that that’s necessarily true. And vain is often looked at in a negative tone. I think that the way I present myself as how I want to be addressed and approached, and that is me telling you, this is how you’re going to address me, and letting you know that I will take nothing else but that. So it’s my introduction before you even know me. You see me, and whether people like that or not, I am seen and that is what I want and I’m okay with that. And I think that that’s great to say, as a woman, you know?
HAND: As a man as well.
CUOCO: As a man as well.
HAND: For sure, the sort of impact of your personal presentation and what it says about you. It’s not something that everybody feels, meaning some people are not, they just want to get dressed. They don’t feel that close, communicate anything about them. The problem…Well, I say the problem, but at least to me, it inherently says something about them, because they’ve made a choice to put on what they’re putting on unless they’re incarcerated, right?
CUOCO: Yeah, that’s right.
HAND: You know, you are saying something, whether it’s, I don’t give a shit. And I look like shit. And I don’t give a shit. Or I look intimidating. And I do give a shit. Or I look approachable. Or I look, in my case, a lot of what I try to communicate, despite wearing a bow tie today, and as soon as I pursued its blazing on outside, is I’m capable and elegant as a lawyer. I’m a professional.
CUOCO: Yeah, and you are.
HAND: But that also can be announced before one even has the opportunity to regale you with my understanding of the 34 Act or some piece of legislation that was recently passed, or even the negotiating posture, I want to take in a certain deal. People form a first opinion within 30 seconds of seeing you.
CUOCO: Thank you. Whether people like that or not, that is exactly what I mean. And I’m going to give you what I expect in return in a way that we don’t even have to speak on. And I think that that’s great. Like, that’s a different language without even having to have a language you know, you just already know.
HAND: And that’s the woman that you are designing for?
HAND: So, are you your own muse?
CUOCO: I am. I am and I’m not. I love what I create. I often wear it. I’m wearing it today: leather belt, white cotton.
HAND: I mean, it’s 98 degrees outside. It’s actually that amazing. That website called Goths in Hot Weather. You ever seen it?
CUOCO: I haven’t.
HAND: It’s a good one. You should check it out. It’s started by the people who brought you “Look at my Fucking Red Trousers.
CUOCO: Oh, nice.
HAND: Yeah, it’s just random captures of Goths dressed in black in white makeup on in really hot weather, looking extremely uncomfortable. But I think having navigated spring summer, you’ve been able to avoid some of that with your designs.
CUOCO: I have. I’ve eased up a little.
HAND: Are there any brands or designers that you think are similar to you, or with respect to certain seasons have had similar moments as you?
CUOCO: No, only some that I aspire to. I don’t think that I’m like… I still consider myself… Sure. I’ve been doing this for you know, when I got out of college after Project Runway. Literally. I think it’s only been five years. And I say only but I think professionally, three. God, it’s been a long journey that just like ran. It’s like, short and long time.
HAND: Well, it’s like dog years, right? When it’s intense. You’re stuffing so much experience into any given 365 days.
HAND: That you really do back to your leather analogy and then you come out as a nicely worn and greatly textured biker jacket.
CUOCO: Lots of mistakes from that.
HAND: So Project Runway, and that’s where many of our listeners may recognize you from. How did that come about and how did it catapult your brand if you feel that it did?
CUOCO: Yeah, actually, I loved Project Runway. I don’t think I’m like most most contestants, sharing the animosity for it, even when I did get kicked off midway through All stars, I still have a great appreciation for that journey. They actually approached me and asked me if I wanted to try out for Project Runway. And this is I think, you know, just four months right out of college. I think I was creating my first collection for London Fashion Week. How I jumped that pond, I’m not quite sure. But I just remember thinking “No, I’m not going to go on Project Runway. I’m not gonna do it.” And my daughter, she’s little at the time, I think she was only eight or nine, she looks up at me and she gets in my face, which by the way, this is not her demeanor. She does not have that kind of demeanor. And she tells me, “If you don’t do that, I’m going to be so disappointed in you.”
CUOCO: I know. Those were fighting words.
HAND: Well, and that’s powerful from you’re child.
CUOCO: Yeah, it was a life decision. And I just immediately was like, “Well, mom’s gonna go.” So again, it changed me. I was on there and you know you’re trying to do…It was a pure creative journey for me at the time, right out of college, still new in my skill. You know something, when you get on Project Runway, America thinks that you’re just like a stamp you as this like seasoned, like validated designer. I don’t know about the actual fashion world, but the rest of America definitely goes, “You are a validated designer,” and you know, that’s a lot.
CUOCO: Well, I think the fashion world has the exact opposite reaction.
CUOCO: They do. I know. And I’m like, “God, if you guys only knew.” Now, so it was a very odd balance scale to kind of try and even out because I just looked at it as an opportunity to be honest, I knew that every minute that I was on TV was advertising for my brand. I knew everything that came out of my mouth was my brand, because going back to what you said, I am my own muse, like my emotions, my feelings, my experiences, that’s my brand. It’s that depth. It’s the emotional aspect of things. So every single thing, I looked at it as an opportunity, a chance to grow my business. And that’s what I was doing was while I was there.
HAND: And you were in control of what you said and what you designed on the show.
HAND: You know, I guess the difficulty is, you’re not in control of how they edit it.
CUOCO: Ooh, the edit. I can’t wait to hear this. No, I’m kidding. But you know, true. But see, I came into it going, “Well, if I sit there and call someone crazy, or say something extremely rude, no matter if it was about her, him or her, I still said it.” You know, they can edit that over another scene about someone but you still said that about someone. If you’re sitting there going, I’m having the hardest time and you’re like constantly mentally breaking down, then that’s what you do. And be proud of it. I knew who I was going into that. I knew that I was stern and that I could articulate certain things. I knew I was comfortable in that. And I’m proud of the fact that I have things to say and I’m okay with saying them. So it didn’t bother me. I think a lot of people may be weren’t confident within where they were at the time. And that’s okay, you know, they’re in that place in their life. But I was just, I was raised a little different.
HAND: You were a little more season than the rest of the co I think test. And I think the designers Yeah,
CUOCO: I think that the one person that I did admire on Project Runway was [Swatno 35:45].
CUOCO: They didn’t paint him in the fashion that I think he deserved. Because he’s a true artist. And I think that he has like a really beautiful soul and his work is very beautiful. And he’s not a US designer. He’s in India, so maybe that’s where the edit was wrong.
HAND: Let me ask you this and you know, producers of reality TV perk your ears up. I mean, what do you think the right format for a show like that featuring designers is? Is it profiles on established designers? Does the format of Project Runway and its competitive nature resonate with you? What would be the proper format for a show that you think would be the iconic fashion designer show?
CUOCO: I love seeing true creativity. And I wish that that was more appreciated on that show. Like the true like, in depth creativity. I think Christian Siriano, that was like just a no brainer. Everyone saw it, he had it, America couldn’t ignore it. And I think often sometimes the show is sometimes pivoted to possibly pick up other things other than just creativity.
HAND: The drama and the acrimony makes for good TV, according to people who know TV.
CUOCO: Yeah. And that’s fine. But I think that people actually…True, sure, whatever, they might like the drama, but I do know …
HAND: There could be a bulk of those shows. But the fictional show that we’re talking about defies that and maybe would be the new, you know? So would it really be more of just a profile of and an in depth real profile of designers doing design?
CUOCO: I like the competitive aspect of it. I do. I like that. And everyone always says, like, “Who are you to judge art and is that art?” and you know, that whole conversation, you could just go on. And we could go on and on for days, we’re not going to do that. I like the competitive aspect of it because it carries things along and it drives like the true creativity out of you. I just wish it focused more on like the value of the creativity and not the drama. Because people do really love to see the behind the scenes. And I think that’s why so many brands are doing that now. They’re letting everyone see what goes eventually how it’s made, how it’s created, why videos are so popular, why people want to know what goes on, they want to see it like, they’re attracted to that, they want to know, they want to learn. They want to be a part of it, because they’re the ones who are buying it. So they want to be a part of it
HAND: Or influenced by it or enamored of it. You know, there’s a lot of consumers—consumers probably not the right word. Just a lot of admirers of brands that those admirers will never be able to afford, maybe they end up buying a scarf, a tie or a belt from that brand.
CUOCO: That’s often what it is.
HAND: Yeah. Well, I know those are the highlight. I mean, I think Gucci sells more belts than any other product. And yes, you know, Aramis sells more…
CUOCO: Isn’t that why it’s always in the front of their store?
CUOCO: The accessories? When you walk in, you’ll notice that that’s in the front of the retail shop, all the accessories because the margin is the most high.
HAND: Well, you’re still early stages. And I think very much staying on focus with women’s wear…
CUOCO: I am.
HAND: …And perspective on women’s wear. If we flashed forward to five successful years of the brand, what other product categories would you be interested in designing for? And I stare at your hat as I always stare at your hats because you are a big wearer of the chapeaus.
CUOCO: I am.
HAND: Would you add accessories like hats at a certain juncture when you add things?
CUOCO: Yeah, I think that I see down the line very refined women’s wear,you know, the leather side, and also for men, just leather jackets. Dresses, because you’ll never catch me in a pair of pants. And I think that there are women out there like that, you know, we all love dresses. And I think hats because that’s turning into who I am and that’s becoming part of my journey and my expression. I’m a very Italian, Sicilian, Lithuanian individual. And I think that I fly my colors by my style. I think hats and very refined, studded leather, beautiful shoes. You know, but I really, truly believe in getting something out there that you care about, that people will care about, that’s not going to fall apart that you’re not going to throw away and it’s just going to sit in the ground forever, pieces that you can hand down and that get more beautiful with time, even sometimes silk and like cottons, they just change, you know?
HAND: Well, let’s talk about that. Because we’re at a critical moment for the planet, many would say.
HAND: Many brands, some of the larger ones, have really now espoused without any true certification or industry wide group that has the proper stamp of approval, but on being sustainable for a brand. And that can be whitewashing for a lot of things. Sustainability moves into labor practices, it moves into environmental impact.
CUOCO: I’m glad you just covered that. Because I often wonder, what does that brand really think that that means, sustainability? Like, you know, are you just changing one thing? Or can you outline what exactly? And it could mean many things so I’m glad you kind of covered that.
HAND: Right. Well, you know, that’s one layer of that massive onion.
CUOCO: Tip of the iceberg.
HAND: But on leather, specifically. So you will have certain brands that won’t use leather from the perspective of animal rights.
CUOCO: That’s right.
HAND: Which isn’t really to my mind a sustainable practice as much as just an ethical practice, what they view their ethics to be.
CUOCO: Which can be very huge.
CUOCO: Everyone’s belief is there belief.
HAND: Well, where do you fall on that? Because you obviously make a wide use of leather.
CUOCO: I do.
HAND: Do you use any other furs or snakeskin or any other animals, I guess from a vegan perspective, not that I’m a vegan, but…
CUOCO: Yeah, I did in the beginning. But as I went down that sustainable road, but not because it became a thing, because we’re still talking five, six, seven, eight years ago, I don’t think that sustainability was a word that was so used as much as it is now. It’s like Starbucks sustainability, you know, it’s like a word that is just always thrown in there and everyone wants
to jump in on it.
HAND: You can’t swing an upcycle denim jacket over your head without hitting a sustainable brand or poster or…
CUOCO: Something, you know, like, “We are!” And so I don’t like to get like shoved into something I truly would like to honestly approach the situation in the way that I can honestly say I either am or I’m not. And so we have to start questioning those things. What does ethical mean for me and my brand? Is it important? It was. What does sustainability mean for me and my brand? Is it important? It started to be but in the beginning, it was not. And at the time, I started thinking about, well, where does this leather come from? And like, is, you know, it’s a byproduct of the food industry. And so I don’t eat meat, which is very odd, I know, because I use leather. But as long as individuals, you know, there’s still steak houses that meat is being used. And there’s so many products that use the whole animal, while that skin is not being thrown away. So I utilize the skin. And that skin is created into a jacket. And that jacket can be passed down for years and years and years. It’s not a full leather, where if you throw it away, or if you wear it for a year, it falls apart on you. You can’t repair those for the most part. You can up cycle them, which I’ve seen people do, but it’s it’s not something that stays in your family or if you throw it into the ground, it’s not going to…It’s not biodegradable, that vegan leather jacket.
HAND: Well, and I think another salient point that you made is just that it’s not something one would choose to wear past a season or two.
HAND: Both from the perspective of of how long it lasts, but also, let’s face it, when something is made… And we’re not talking like a Stella McCartney fungal leather substitute on something beautiful.
HAND: We’re talking about a cutting the corners mass brand that is doing something that they perceive as trendy.
CUOCO: Yeah, I’ve owned a Zara Faux leather coat, and it scratches and tears and shreds, the paint comes off after a year. I’m not going to use that or give it to my daughter, I threw it away, as many people throw things away, and they’ll go buy another one. So is that sustainable? No. But my leather jackets, I will keep and I would not dare toss that. It’s just you keep them and you don’t toss those. I think that’s sustainable.
HAND: Yeah. And if a secondary market develops around gently used items, or in the case of leather or even not so gently used. Denim, leather, there are these fabrics that age nicely over time. There are other fabrics, which just because of their beauty and provenance and high expense level, make sense to have repaired.
CUOCO: That’s right.
HAND: And if there is a market… I mean, there is today a market but it’s not huge. But you hear more and more about the gens Ed customer, some of the younger millennials, very much having a rental mentality or a temporary ownership mentality over most things in their lives, clothes included.
HAND: And that would seem to be a viable… I’ve heard that about 60% of what most consumers buy apparel wise winds up thrown away.
CUOCO: Everyone tosses it.
HAND: Whether that gets up cycled ultimately or…But most of it lands in the planet.
CUOCO: Honestly, I here so many people say I mean, everyone will tell you, “Oh, I donated it.” But honestly, I think that it does get thrown away. And these leather jackets that people are purchasing are not going to get thrown away. They cost a lot. It’s a high purchase, they last a very long time. And just like we’ve said over and over again, they get more beautiful with time. And so to me, that is my version of sustainability, along with other things we use like biodegradable bags, from Talon International, things like that, you know, our hang tags have seeds in them, you plant them, it grows a beautiful rose bush. You know, like our own little touches. We won’t shipping plastic. I mean, that had to come along the way. But can I ever say that I’m 100% sustainable? No. And it’s just not something that I’ve reached. I don’t know however many companies.
HAND: Well, the industry as a whole, groups like the CFA, groups like, you know, other international groups. I know Stella McCartney herself now talking the individual representing the brand has spoken at the UN on this at length, and even partnered up with Google to capture information so that we can develop actual certification and transparency so that we can see where we’re getting things made. And I say we now, the collective fashion industry, not we the designer. But most people know that brands don’t own their own factories, don’t even own any of the means of production for most of their garments. And so therefore, it’s all outsourced. And how far does the obligation of diligence of where you’re getting things made go? You, as a small brand, can’t necessarily travel to a factory that is perhaps sewing together 15 items, if it’s a fairly bespoke item, to make sure that things are being done the way that you have been told they’re being done, and moreover want them to be done. So that’s a challenge. And the solution is disclosure and the solution is group action, I think. But that will take time,
CUOCO: I think that the fact that just people are interested in just trying…And just like I said in those three ways for myself, just approaching even if it’s one thing, you know, and like if people, I recognize that, you know, that’s trying. That’s in other brands as well, and just be honest in that in that sense. And then your consumer can consciously make a decision, do they want to support you or not? So I think that consumers are more demanding in that way and they need brands and companies to be more honest, because at the end of the day, we’re all people, and people want to know. So it’s a tough topic.
HAND: It’s a tough topic. Let’s switch to another topic.
HAND: So you named your brand after yourself.
CUOCO: I did.
HAND: And I know you had named it and you were showing it London Fashion Week before Project Runway. But certainly the Project Runway experience underscored your personal association with the brand. Has that been a challenge in any regard, whether in connection with potential financing of the brand, recognizing that in giving up a stake of your company, you will inherently give up some ownership over your name for purposes of use in commerce? Or I don’t think you’ve entered into any licenses but if you ever contemplate them and for instance, outsource hats under your brand name, that whoever that milliner is, would be selling your name into what they’re producing. Does that give you any pause? Or is that like…?
CUOCO: No, there’s no pause. Because I’ve built and consistently stayed true. Even when I do try to stray off of my brand identity, which is my namesake, which is me, I can’t. And so as long as I’m here, which I hope is for a very long time, I don’t think that that’ll be a problem. I mean, there’s quality control in everything. But I think my aesthetic and the emotional factor of the brand stamp is there and it’s so strong, that the only people who would gravitate towards me to license out or so on and so forth, would be like a sister to what I’m already doing, you know? Like, I’m not going to attract…What’s another company that’s like the opposite of me? Many of them. It’s just very dark and deep. And there’s an emotional romanticism to it. So I know that…
HAND: [inaudible 52:13]
HAND: Is she not the flip side of your…?
CUOCO: I think so, definitely.
HAND: You know, I was trying to think of someone anodyne that also my firm didn’t represent. That’s who I came up with but mainly as a counterpoint to your distinct point.
CUOCO: I did worry about naming, having it be a name sake.
HAND: Well, so how did you arrive at it? Was it that artist in you that was like what else would I name it, this is authentic to name it after myself?
HAND: That’s simple. Which is fine. I mean, that’s the most common answer I hear.
CUOCO: Anything else would be a lie. And any other name wouldn’t be it? It’s like calling a horse a pig. I don’t know.
HAND: So when you see EverLane or Rag and Bone or when you see a brand that has no…
CUOCO: Name and no face.
HAND: No eponymous name, does that ring hollow to you, or?
CUOCO: In a way, because I have such an attachment to the emotional value to things as what I’m wearing, what I’m purchasing what I put on, what they represent, I think that people can connect to me, to my brand, me, as in my brand more because of it, there’s a face, people can relate to it, or they can know that they don’t relate to it. There’s a very clear name aesthetic personality, which is what I learned early on that you do as a brand. You put a personality to it. Well, it is my personality. So I thought with my resources, and my backing, which was none. What am I going to do? I’m going to put my full emotional characteristics value into it. And that is my brand identity, which is me. And so I worked with what I had from the very beginning, which was me, I was my only asset that I had. And that was plenty at the time. So it was a no brainer for me.
HAND: Yeah, that’s good. We have covered this ground a little bit but I’ll give you yet another bat at it. You’ve described some of your creations as armor. You’re obviously acutely aware of some of the struggles that women face with respect to body image as well as just perhaps in the workplace, what’s appropriate to wear, what’s not appropriate to wear.
CUOCO: I don’t believe in that.
HAND: Yeah. Well, so what you know, let’s flash to you, you’ve walked around HBA. Do you have a perception as to what’s appropriate for a female lawyer to wear or not wear? Or are you…?
CUOCO: No. I actually hate that. And there was something in saying that that kind of angered me just a bit, just a bit. There’s fire in me, you know, like you just kind of woken up? I don’t think that because and I…
HAND: We don’t have a dress code here.
CUOCO: Oh, okay. That’s good. I’m like, “Doug, am I trying to get…?” No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. I just know.
HAND: I just think industry wide it’s something that men and women struggle with as as service profession.
CUOCO: I definitely think it’s a struggle.
HAND: I think for women, it’s perhaps more of a struggle, because they have even more challenges in traditionally white collar and male dominated industries.
CUOCO: For sure.
HAND: Their choices are question beyond just, that doesn’t make you look professional to that makes you look available, that enhances your body in ways that are not workplace appropriate. I mean…
CUOCO: Good. Great, let’s do that then. I mean, that’s really where my brain goes. And I think of my mom all the time, because I think, and or…. No, I don’t think, I feel, which that runs my thought process, that my assets physically do not define my characteristics on the inside. And how I wish to celebrate how you approach me, like I was saying earlier, if my cleavage is low, or have tight clothes on, I’m very proud of my body, I’ve had two children, I’ve worked very hard for where I’m at in my confidence level, my value as a woman, and that’s on the outside and very much on the inside. And so I’ve reached that place where my value isn’t my cleavage, or you know, like the waist size, or you what you visually can and can’t see, it’s more within, it’s just I’m very comfortable with my outside. And I’ve never allowed, which I can’t say that for everyone, because you know, people are raised differently. I think that women are pushed into this box that we’re supposed to be in. And we’re expected to be…Well, not to be sexual, which we all are in whichever way we prefer. Or maybe some aren’t. But whether you are or you aren’t, whether you like to be covered or uncovered, I don’t think that that really has much to do with your work ethic. And that is just what makes me feel good. So if I want to be partially naked or fully clothed, that’s what makes me feel good. And that is my preference. And I think it’s, I don’t know, it angers me when we have to like bind ourselves. So I don’t even think this way that I need to dress a certain way so you don’t approach me in a certain manner. I don’t think it so that way I don’t represent that. And I don’t think I’ve ever been approached that way. And I don’t think that that’s my responsibility. My responsibility is my actions. And I think that says the same for anybody else. So if I have clothes on, no clothes on, whatever it is, I mean, you know, we’re always partially clothed in the workplace, I think. But if someone addresses me in a certain way, I don’t believe it’s because of what I’m wearing as far as my cleavage is low. I don’t know. That’s a tough one.
HAND: Well, and it’s a tough needle to thread. I think for women. I mean, so the book, The Laws of Style speaks only two men swear. And men have obviously had it far easier. You put a suit on as a lawyer and you look like a lawyer. In most cases, it should fit nicely. It should be made of the right seasonal materials, but we’re not struggling with, “Are you showing too much of some part of your body? I mean, you’re completely clothed. And it’s basically Garanimals for adults. You know, 80% of your sartorial representation is one color or pattern.
CUOCO: I think it means something different for certain people too, you know, like sexual is different from careless or confident in one’s body is different from, you know, not . So everyone has their own definitions, and they were it in different ways, and for different reasons. So it’s just a tough one.
HAND: It’s a tough one. Because really, as we started with personal presentation, that can be as varied as people’s personalities, right?
CUOCO: Yeah. And the way you’re dressed and how you feel and how you’re representing yourself, that is your message. But I think that the next step in humanity, is speaking to one another. So what does that mean for that person? Does that cleavage mean I stand strong in my body and my sexuality and my personality? I own it. Does it mean the opposite? So it’s a very personal message. I think we all have that.
HAND: Well, you, today, one of the hottest days of the year, you still won’t be exempted from what you’re wearing today for really not so much our viewers, but those that aren’t viewing and are just downloading. So can you describe what you’re wearing, who designed it? I have certain guests that you might have a lot of labels sewn into those clothes. And why you chose this ensemble for today. I know you had multiple activities today, again, 98 degrees outside so a real challenge for anybody coming in in the afternoon to record a podcast.
CUOCO: Well, my eyebrows are melting off my face. No, I’m kidding. Head to toe I have a beautiful asymmetrical somewhat black felt Fedora Eugenia Kim tax. I love this hat just because it…
HAND: Good for some protection,
CUOCO: Good for sun protection. It is hot. It’s like a little mini blanket, but it’s also sun protection. You know, it’s a 50/50, it’s just I like it because it has a certain difference to it, there’s an air to it, you know, you say that you have a bow tie and you wear a suit because there’s a certain elegance to you. I have tattoos all over my body, specifically the left side but I like the hard and soft so that elegance with a little bit of the rough, which I think is very much my brand. Only silver jewelry. Hoops in every single ear that dangle.
HAND: So if you receive as a gift, a piece of jewelry that has gold or brass or some or even, like are you that [knocking teeth] about it?
CUOCO: Yeah. I don’t wear gold. It just doesn’t go with…. I’ve had the little sun today but I’m very fair complexted. And I’ve got black hair and I wear red lips and like, that does not change. And so the silver kind of is a subtle contrast but not too much. I think that the gold just kind of clashes with all of those.
HAND: Yeah, for those that are you know, sort of iPhone users you’re pretty much always on like the Tokyo filter but with red lipstick.
CUOCO: Yeah, exactly. This that is me. That is what I’m wearing today, the Tokyo filter with red lipstick. That was great.
HAND: Well, I too. Men and women dress differently, but our hardware so to speak, is a challenge. I wear less than you. But I do wear a watch every day. I do treat my belt buckle hardware as sort of part of that and I find it to be a challenge if I’m wearing a silver watch and the belt that happens to go with my shoes, which is another conundrum, because the leather should match the shoes, right?
CUOCO: That’s right.
HAND: Happens to be brass or gold not you know, but the gold color.
CUOCO: It clashes, especially because it hits in the same line, vision.
CUOCO: You know, it’s a clash. I also just don’t buy anything other than silver and I like…
HAND: Fixes that problem.
CUOCO: Yes, it does.
HAND: Except for gifts.
CUOCO: Yeah, except for gifts. I work so much that I haven’t piled on the gifts. It’s just like you know, it’s a constant. I’m always working.
HAND: So from the hat down, who makes the various accessories? I mean, is it too many to…You’ve got a lot of jewelry.
CUOCO: I do.
HAND: Is there one in particular that resonates with you as far as a designer?
CUOCO: I purchased this necklace. It’s a little beautiful locket as you would call it, possibly but as a little kind of bell inside of it and it’s a sphere. And it has Cornelian stone at the bottom. So I don’t take it off. I got it in Bali and it’s not by a designer, there’s an emotional attachment to it, as most things are . The dress is a white cotton off the shoulder has ruffles and it’s cinched at the waist with a leather Candice Cuoco belt The dress is also Candice Cuoco.
HAND: Where did the cotton come from? I’m curious, because I was in Greece recently and discovered, the cotton there just seemed better, I don’t know, lighter, but more for the purpose with which I would approach a cotton garment you know, which is light and breathable.
CUOCO: Yes, but this has more of a structure to it. So when we create the shape and the sleeves, they’re kind of like very mini ligament and puff sleeves as you may possibly call them. It’s a heavier cotton. That way it holds its structure. And I always belt things or cinch things at the waist. I just like the structure of it like it feels…
HAND: Which I think is where the word girdle comes from.
CUOCO: Probably. I don’t know that answer, but it sits me up straight and it gives me that posture. And that’s, you know, how I approach things.
HAND: And footwear, which you don’t necessarily have to bring into the shot.
CUOCO: Well, they’re leather pointed Calvin Klein.
CUOCO: They’re belted at the ankle, but you know, I have a really high arch so I can’t wear a flat. But yeah, I have been doing some sightseeing, lots of running around with my daughter. And it’s just a small little heel. But it’s a black heel because you can get around in those.
HAND: Yeah. Well, it’s a muggy day, for sure. With the little bit of time that we have left, I would love to hear your comments on directionally where you think the industry is going with respect to unisex design. There seem to be more gender fluid consumers out there in the younger segment of the market than ever before. And I think certain design houses are responding to that with unisex offerings. Do you think that that is kind of latching onto a fad? Or do you think that is a…?
CUOCO: Okay, no, I don’t think that it’s a fad. I think that it might, it could possibly feel as one because it’s a topic, but it’s always been a thing. I mean, women wear men’s clothes, men wear women’s clothes. They wear this, he and she wears that.
HAND: Are there things you design or have designed to date where you felt strongly this is really, I’m a women’s wear brand but this could easily be worn by a man and even you happen to know men that have purchased and worn them? You don’t like pants, so I’m going to assume you don’t make pants.
CUOCO: I don’t make pants. I don’t necessarily think that all men need to be in pants.
CUOCO: You know, from the very beginning I’m like, God, I wish I could see, you know, like a beautiful guy in one of my very straight dresses or leather jackets that bleed often into both worlds, men’s wear women’s wear, I think I feel like it could just be worn by anybody. And I don’t think that anybody would openly say it. I know people in the past have. But I think that other people might have a problem with that. And I’ve always found beauty in it because it’s different. There’s like an emotional story behind why they enjoy that and it represents them. And that is their message. And you see it before they can even say it. And how you approach it is your own responsibility; going back to what I’m wearing and how people approach that, that’s other people putting value on it. But they have value and emotion into that. So yes, I say women’s wear because if I’m pitching my leather jacket line to Barney’s or Neiman’s or Nordstrom or something like that, you know, like there’s still that box that they define it by and people need to go, “I’m gonna go buy a jacket up in the women’s department,” but do only women or men? Can they only wear…? No, I love when my clothes are ripped inside out, pulled upside down, worn by he, she, them. I think it’s beautiful, because it tells a different story, and that’s what I’m really after.
HAND: And it’s nice that we’re at a time where that is…
HAND: …More open conversation. Certainly, when I was going to law school back in the 90s, really one of my study partners was a guy who went on to write The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit.
CUOCO: Oh, nice.
HAND: He was fluid. And dressed that way as an undergrad and Columbia, but then kind of tried to reverse course, to you know, his style chagrin in law school, but you know, hard environment to wear a skirt in as man…
CUOCO: It is.
HAND: …Who wasn’t identifying other than heterosexual at the time.
CUOCO: That’s hard, because you’re asking people to open up to something that they don’t understand. And then intern, you’re volunteering yourself to be the one to explain and help them understand that, and then with not understanding comes anger and frustration, and they get scared or whatnot. And so I’m aware of that when I am a certain way or dress a certain way. And like I have an approach and that way, you know, like, “Let me help you understand or see.” And hopefully, they’re open minded enough to possibly take something away with it that they could learn from. Not everyone does. And that’s okay. But it’s a courageous thing to lead ones own and not be like anyone else. And so I admired this man that you speak of.
HAND: Well, we have to break. So that’s a wrap. Candice, thank you so much for coming in.
CUOCO: Yeah, thanks for Listen to me go on and on about emotions.
HAND: Oh, no, please. I’m sure our listeners rapt attention. Any social media handles that our listeners should be following or events coming up in your orbit that you want to promote?
CUOCO: Yeah, I’m actually releasing my first solely leather jacket line and pulling out archive pieces that we’re going to start offering to our customers and going back to, you know, having my name be my brand name, it’s all on every single possible thing Candace Cuoco. And it’s C-U-O. It means cook in Italian.
HAND: It means coke?
HAND: Cook. I was gonna say coke.
CUOCO: That would be interesting. I don’t do either.
HAND: Well, the brand is certainly cooking. And we are certainly going to be cooking. Yeah, excuse the pun, but hottest day of the year undoubtedly. Have a safe trip back.
HAND: Thanks for coming on.
CUOCO: I’m excited. Thanks, Doug. Bye.
OUTRO: You’ve been listening to The Laws of Style with Douglas Hand. For more information, go to our firstname.lastname@example.org and you can also follow us on Instagram and Twitter at @handofthelaw. Thank you for tuning in. And stay stylish.